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CBC unplugged

Mon Aug 29, 2005 Miss Vicky 

Robert Rabinovitch ruined the last week of my vacation.

It became painfully obvious to me that CBC radio is an integral part of my cottage experience. It keeps me informed, keeps me amused and keeps me company. I spend a lot of time alone up there, you see. There's no phone, no TV and you can only get so much conversation out of the loons.

My daily ritual usually begins with a pot of coffee and Ontario Morning, sitting in a comfy chair on the porch, watching the light play on the water and gradually waking up to the news. If I'm really feeling the effects of the long, deep cottage sleep, I stay put through The Current before I head to the rock for my morning swim or down the road for a jog. The radio will be off and on most of the day, and on again in the evening while I'm making supper. Like I said, it keeps me company. And I've heard some amazing stuff over the years - Ross Porter's biography of Chet Baker, for example, or a piece last summer on the public wolf howls in Algonquin Park. This summer's O'Reilly on Advertising series was hilarious, and while I miss Anthony Germain's wry hosting on Saturday morning's Politics and the many giggles I get from listening to Go, I did get a bit of a kick from Sean Cullen's summer show and Promo Girl's Nancy-Drew-of-the-CBC spots.

Of course, all that was shot when the lockout started. I didn't notice much the first week, since the family was up and the nieces and nephew had my undivided attention (who needs radio when you can hunt for mushrooms?). But after everyone left, it sure was quiet. I felt restless; I read even more compulsively than I usually do when I'm up there. And I couldn't shake the profound sense that something was missing. I tried listening to the scabs for a while, but couldn't hack it. Then I was even more appalled to hear they were filling the airtime with repeats of Sounds like Canada and other shows - the labour of those very employees who now walk the picket lines on Sparks and Front Streets and other studios across the country. Must feel like a double dose of punishment from the Mothercorps for the writers, producers, technicians, journalists and hosts who worked so hard to put those shows together in the first place.

Now I'm back in Ottawa, and again my morning routine has been disrupted. Normally I'd wake up to the radio, listen to Ottawa Morning for a while, get caught up on the national and local scene, then head off on the Bridgehead/River walk with Winston and the Webgeek . This morning: nothing.

The thing is, it's just not home without the CBC. At the cottage or when I'm travelling, the CBC keeps me connected to the rest of the country and is a trusted source of information about what's happening in the world. Here in Ottawa, the local shows help create a sense of community, make me feel like I'm plugged in to what's happening - and provides me with a fine source of blogging inspiration. Plus I really enjoy the dry humour and quick wit of the folks who work here - the Ottawa morning crowd, Alan Neale's noon show, Ian Black's special way of reporting the weather... ok we've lost Brent Bambury, and I'm still getting over that, but you get where I'm going with this. These are people who love their work, and it really shows. They're warm, funny, talented and the radio just isn't the same without them.

The thing is, job stability is a vital part of loving your work. It establishes a connection, inspires loyalty and instils a desire to perform. If your work is appreciated, you're more motivated to produce, right? And it seems to me that this is the key issue in this dispute. The employer wants the right to hire more contract workers, saying they need flexibility. The union's argument is that temporary workers should not be doing the work that full-time, permanent folks could do, and they don't want to give the employer the right to exploit contract workers. Same thing is happening in other sectors - permanent positions are being replaced with cheap temps or part-time jobs with no benefits and no security of employment. People jump from contract to contract, with no access to unemployment insurance in between.... or they're rehired year after year on a contract basis, left in a limbo of precarity even though there is a clear need for a permanent position in their workplace. Heck, I was one of these workers for a while myself, and I deal with academics in this position every day. It's stressful, it's demoralizing and it's frustrating.

So, I'm feeling a bit unplugged myself, thanks to CBC management.

I went searching for a fix today. And I found some good stuff

Tod Maffin's blog, CBC Unplugged, is a good compendium of info and resources. Plus there are cool t-shirts you can make yourself. And you can download some of the guerilla radio podcasts from the various picket sites....

Hadeel's blog gives the lowdown on the Sparks Street picket line.

Here's a site for members of the CBC's key demographic to make their voices heard. The folks responsible for this site made cupcakes for the Sparks Street picket this week.....aw.

Here's the Media Guild's picket line news resource.

Plenty more out there if you feel like surfing for it. I guess I'll have to head down to the picket line myself later this week, and show some solidarity with the folks who usually make my day.

Some people were moved to reply

The Webgeek Aug 29, 2005 03:01 PM said:

...and you can only get so much conversation out of the loons.

Hey, I was there too on weekends.

Oh....

Wait.

DEADwrong Aug 29, 2005 04:56 PM said:

Despite the limited amount of time I can get to listen to the radio - my landlady doesn't like talk radio and I don't like using headphones much - I miss the CBC - the news, the morning shows.

And the repeats are somewhat insulting.

It was 1981 about when I was living in a house owned then by a woman who was a planner with the Feds. Her job appeared to be planning for a future without permanent union staff in many departments and a reliance on non-union temps. This war's been coming a long time.

Seems the social leaders like to keep us all at wits end - to better control us?

Argggghhhh!

amckay Aug 29, 2005 05:29 PM said:

Oh boy, again with the 'scabs'! Can you prove they've hired scabs, or is that just added affect for the spin-doctoring?

I've been looking around for the real nuts-and-bolts of the situation to try to decide where I stand on the dispute, but I haven't been able to find anywhere near enough info to be able to form an informed opinion. What we really need to know are some of the details of the proposed contract and how that differs from the previous contract, not the fluffy, spun generalisations we've been getting from both sides.

Until I can get some real meat and potatoes, I remain undecided. And while I'm going round the dial which I normally don't do, I just keep tuning back to CBC because (1) commercial radio sucks pretty bad, and (2) it's not a repeat if you've never heard it before.

The Webgeek Aug 29, 2005 05:54 PM said:

Oh boy, again with the 'scabs'! Can you prove they've hired scabs, or is that just added affect for the spin-doctoring?

Because we all know that the success or failure of CBC negotiations hinge on what's written on this wee blog, eh AMckay ;-)

Miss Vicky Aug 29, 2005 05:59 PM said:

A scab is someone who does the work of striking or locked-out workers. Managers are reading the news, compiling the repeat programming, getting it on the air, and making sure the cbc.ca website is up to date (content is crap, but that's another thing entirely). It may be inflammatory, but you know what? I'm not neutral. I'm a trade unionist.

This blog by a CBC manager provides some insight into who's doing the work. Check out the "locked in" entry in particular.

The Webgeek Aug 29, 2005 06:03 PM said:

Check out definition #3

Main Entry: scab
Function: noun
1 : a worker who refuses to join a labor union
2 : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended
3 : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike : STRIKE BREAKER
4 : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

amckay Aug 29, 2005 07:11 PM said:

Yes it is inflammatory, and it's spin-doctoring. And yes, I know that most of the people who read this site already have their mind made up on such matters long before they know any of the facts surrounding the situation, which is part of the reason I'm a disallusioned socialist.

I used to think that lefties had a monopoly on the truth, and at some point I don't recall exactly when I finally came to realise that any -ist or -ism is just as good or bad as the next as far as that goes.

That's when I decided to pursue the truth instead of some -ism ... though I will admit that at very least socialism errs on the side of the people, though it does often and grievously err.

accidental altruist Aug 29, 2005 08:55 PM said:

That's when I decided to pursue the truth instead of some -ism ... though I will admit that at very least socialism errs on the side of the people, though it does often and grievously err.



you think you are alone in your persuit of truth? seriously and for true?


amckay Aug 29, 2005 09:04 PM said:

No I don't in the least, but it's easy to glance around and see an awful lot of people who aren't the least bit concerned with it. I know, I know, who gives a schleck about them? I should be more concerned with my own way ... and I don't mean that in a selfish way. In fact, the most selfless ...

Miss Vicky Aug 29, 2005 10:47 PM said:

By all means, amckay, do your own research and let us know what you find.

Dr.Dawg Aug 30, 2005 08:18 AM said:

The CBC is in real trouble, so real that I am beginning to suspect that senior managers with Rabinovitch at the helm are dleiberately running MotherCorp into the ground. Then the government can hive it off at firesale prices. CBC has been under attack since Chretien assumed the throne, and its been under the gun ever since.

Funny thing about Stursberg, just for gossip's sake: he was one of four Carleton students back around 1969 who tried to organize a chapter of the Young Communist League on campus. Now he's snarking at locked-out workers.

As for amckay, who's never seen a labour action he hasn't wanted to bait, I trust that the definition of "scab" provided will keep him meditating silently as he searches for oneness with everything. :)

amckay Aug 30, 2005 09:12 AM said:

I would say I've never seen a labour action I haven't wanted to fully understand. The provided definiation does not pass the "reasonable person" test, IMO. The definition I grew up with (and I grew up in one of the strongest labour union households you'll ever see, as I'm sure Miss Vicky would verify) is that a scab is someone who didn't use to work there, but got hired to come in and fill the positions of the striking workers.

But since the spin-doctors aren't likely to stop using the term as long as it serves their spin, I'll simply accept it as given since it is really moot to my search for truth in the matter.

And I have been searching Miss Vicky, but it would seem the truth of this matter is not to be found. Don't let that stop anyone, though ;-)

Miss Vicky Aug 30, 2005 09:29 AM said:

The law dictionary doesn't pass the "reasonable person" test? How about the OED?
BTW the managers are being paid bonuses during the lockout, to compensate, presumably, for the extra work and stress. So while they are not hired specifically as replacement workers, they are still doing the work of the folks who are locked out and being compensated for it. They may not be happy doing it, and they may have to scab to keep their own jobs, but they do fit the definition. Call it spin if you want - it's an opinion site after all!

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Aug 30, 2005 12:48 PM said:

Why do people feel they have to have an opinion of everybody else's labour action?

It doesn't matter much if I think the union is right or management is right. It's not my business.

Workers and managers have the right to bargain, they can withdraw or refuse labour. They both have the right to make stupid decisions and push for rediculous demands.

What is more important is that I support their right to bargain, their right to strike and, yes, their right to lock workers out.

My first reaction was to write to my MP and ask them to end the strike - but that would be an unacceptable level of political interferrence that I would never contemplate if it was the workers on strike. So I bit my tongue in the case of a lockout.

I did right to Rabinovitch (twice), and I will right to my MP to point out that underfunding is a big source of the problem.

It's between the workers and their management - we're just unfortunate bystanders.

amckay Aug 30, 2005 01:28 PM said:

Why do people feel they have to have an opinion of everybody else's labour action?

For the same reason I have opinions on the situation in the middle east, global warming, free trade, or the colour we paint the kitchen wall. It's an issue. I'm a person who likes to form an educated opinion on issues.

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Aug 30, 2005 05:23 PM said:

Yeah, ok - I get that.

I have lots of opinions too.

For example I have an opinion on my sister's faltering marriage and who's right and who's wrong- but I know enough to keep my mouth shut and keep my opinions to myself. Right and wrong is up to them to decide.

So I kibbitz about it for hours with my mom on the phone and we discuss our opinions at great length. But when it comes to my sister, we know our opinions about who's right and who's wrong are not helpfull.

So it's fun to talk about whether we support the labour side or the management side of any dispute, but I hope we never loose sight of the fact that our opinions are irrelevant to the dispute.

I won't cross a picket line, even if I think the labour side's bargaining positions are foolish. I'll respect the right to strike even if I think it's a stupid move. I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Aug 30, 2005 05:26 PM said:

p.s. (and this is not directed at anyone in particular, really) I have found that the more I keep my opinions to myself the easier it is to make friends and get along with people.

My opinions only come out to party when the room is relatively receptive to hearing opinions. It's not cowardice - just manners.

I also find that my opinions, when they come out to party, tend to be heavy drinkers.

amckay Aug 30, 2005 09:04 PM said:

You see, the CBC is funded with yours and my tax dollars, so I am as directly involved in this dispute as are management and labour. My opinion counts as much as theirs.

Jason Aug 30, 2005 10:40 PM said:

I used to think that lefties had a monopoly on the truth, and at some point I don't recall exactly when I finally came to realise that any -ist or -ism is just as good or bad as the next as far as that goes.

Oh, man, what a fun topic... Too bad it always ends with hard feelings. (Gee, why would I think that?)

missvickysmother Aug 31, 2005 01:29 PM said:

About the CBC lockout..... and the delay of negotiations, presumably to put financial pressure on all the workers. Since CBC radio is a national treasure, and the workers there are part of that treasure, I would think most Canadians would support the workers, since we love CBC radio so much. If they're being pressured financially by the lockout and the delay tactics, why doesn't someone start a fund to support the workers while they're off work and without income? $20 from every listener would be worth several million. That should tide them over through the negotiations. Has anyone thought about giving the workers financial support while they are without an income?

amckay Aug 31, 2005 01:42 PM said:

Firstly, most Canadians don't listen to / watch CBC in my experience. Hockey Night in Canada excepted.

Also, you can make the same argument for the management side : since CBC is a national treasure you would think most Canadians would support the corporation's attempt to keep itself alive, and would support the lockout.

Both of these are appeals to emotion, and are invalid.

accidental altruist Aug 31, 2005 01:47 PM said:

Both of these are appeals to emotion, and are invalid.

emotions are invalid? if we were all living on the Planet Vulcan - then maybe.

Miss Vicky Aug 31, 2005 02:33 PM said:

we all know your experience counts for everything, amckay :rolleyes:

Mom, you can find out how to help the locked-out workers by visiting the media guild's site, or wandering down to the picket on Sparks and Queen. They probably do have a hardship fund; this is quite common.

Another thing we can do, if folks are game, is bring 'em some food one day and visit them en masse. Maybe make our own Miss Vicky placards.

And amckay? No flaming my Mom or I might have to have a talk with yours.

amckay Aug 31, 2005 03:03 PM said:

Anyone have any real stats for CBC viewers/listeners? I know most righties call it "lefty stuff" and won't touch it. I'll go look for some. Wikipedia says viewership is in decline, but who knows where they got that from.

And sorry, but if you want to play on the web, you gotta get used to flames (even though that wasn't one in the least ). Speaking matter-of-factly, not disrespectfully, of course.

But isn't the real problem here lack of funding? Perhaps the corporation is only trying to do it's best with the limited funding it gets. Anyone have any numbers as to the funding over the last 10 years or so?

Miss Vicky Aug 31, 2005 03:58 PM said:

Actually, amckay, if you want to play on my blog, you have to play nice. Remember Sea Salt's parlour analogy?

The root of the problem is indeed lack of funding; both sides advocate writing your MP. Stats are easy to get - try the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting site. According to them, funding has declined 4.5% since the mid-nineties. In constant dollars, it's declined 20.5%.

The Webgeek Aug 31, 2005 03:59 PM said:

Well, AMKAY,
My quick search of Google for "CBC viewership rating" produced this National Post Article, and a similar one at Playback. Now, that's just the News ratings, but it does look like viewership is down. It alsoi seems, from looking at the numbers that CBC had a healthy percentage of that market, so I guess people watched more than just Hockey....

And I also found two sites, Friends of the CBC (for us tree hugging lefties) and CBCWatch (for those who expose the CBC's liberal bias) Both of which seem to have a huge amount of news on the CBC.

The Webgeek Aug 31, 2005 04:03 PM said:

And while you're defending the Management for trying to save the CBC with "more flexibility", you may want to make sure that's what they're realy doing, and not just Union Busting.

amckay Sep 1, 2005 08:56 AM said:

I wasn't defending management, I was presenting an equal but opposite appeal to emotion to demonstrate that it works both ways - neither has any substance.

And I am playing nice, Miss Vicky. You accused me of flaming your mom - and since I didn't see a smiley I have to assume you were being serious. It wasn't a flame in the least - I was offering my counter-views on her views. It was a completely civil post. Are you telling me your mom has carte blanche and that nobody should be offering civil retorts to anything she says? I see no reason to treat your mom any differently than I would treat anyone else on this site - with respect and dignity. I believe that's how I've been behaving since day 1. Yes, I can have strong opinions, but I always express them in a respectful manner.

Miss Vicky Sep 1, 2005 10:05 AM said:

Well, perhaps I'm a bit touchy where my Mom is concerned. I'm sure you understand.

amckay Sep 1, 2005 10:29 AM said:

Yes, I do understand :-)

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Sep 1, 2005 12:21 PM said:

amckay said: "Are you telling me your mom has carte blanche and that nobody should be offering civil retorts to anything she says?"

I like this idea.

amckay Sep 2, 2005 01:30 PM said:

Oh, I missed this one : emotions are invalid? if we were all living on the Planet Vulcan - then maybe.

Emotions are invalid in an argument meant to persuade someone with any amount of substance. If your only basis for an argument is emotion, then you have nothing to stand on. It's one of the fundamentals of philosophical discourse. And whether you realise it or not, debate - political and otherwise - has it's basis in philosophical discourse. And that is largely what we're engaging in here.

In this example, let's assume we're trying to persuade the government to spend more money on the CBC. Would you honestly consider it satisfactory to base that argument solely on an appeal to emotion? Or would you perhaps rather have some facts and figures to support an argument that shows why they deserve more funding? If you were the one writing the cheques, whom would you listen to? What would you find most convincing to write that cheque? Someone telling you the CBC is a 'national treasure' even when the case may be that only 10% of people use it? (exaggeration to make the point)

No, the whole world is not based on facts and figures and thank gawd for that, but if you are trying to win an argument you'd better be armed with some. You suggested yourself above that you were on a search for truth. Emotional appeals are not going to get to that goal anytime soon.

The Webgeek Sep 2, 2005 01:38 PM said:

In this example, let's assume we're trying to persuade the government to spend more money on the CBC. Would you honestly consider it satisfactory to base that argument solely on an appeal to emotion? Or would you perhaps rather have some facts and figures to support an argument that shows why they deserve more funding?

When trying to convince the governement of anything, you have to put it in terms of "how many votes will this get me next time around?" So, in that case, emotions do play a very big role in that.

For an example, look southward.

amckay Sep 2, 2005 01:39 PM said:

And for an example of just what a crappy way to do things that is, look southward as well. Making decisions based on emotions is one of the most sure-fire ways to make the wrong decision. Even the one most contrary to the desired goal.

amckay Sep 2, 2005 01:49 PM said:

Actually, we don't even have to look southward to see what's wrong with emotional appeal. Look at the horrdendous tragedy of the ecole polytechnique in montreal. Appeals such as "We must never allow this to happen again" seem to be what 10+ years later eventually lead to our current gun registry boondoggle. Even though it was well documented that the decades-old existing handgun registry had never been used to solve a single crime, an awful lot of Canadians rallied behind this new registry because the emotional appeal combined with the magnitude of the initial tragedy had them in an irrational frenzy. Here we are having p**sed away some 1 to 2 billion dollars as a result, and we are not one iota closer to preventing another horrendous tragedy. This is where appeal to emotion gets you.

And for the record, I'm a very big supporter of a gun registry. Just not for 2 billion bucks, thanks. As mentioned before, webgeek and I could have implemented that one for probably a million and still walked away with a pretty good chunk of change in our pockets.

Miss Vicky Sep 2, 2005 02:41 PM said:

let's not have this thread diverted to a discussion of the gun registry, OK?

I went down to the Locked out Live show again today. Next week you'll be able to hear them on Wednesday from 7 to 8am on CKCU Radio (93.1FM), and they'll be live on Sparks Street at noon on Thursday.

Oh, and donations can be made to the canadian media guild and dropped off at the picket line on Sparks Street.

Miss Vicky Sep 2, 2005 02:53 PM said:

And I forgot to mention the highlight of yesterday's Locked out Live show. Laurence Wall, who normally reads the news during the drive-home show, All in a Day, started the show with the news, which included a piece on the slick packages the employer has mailed to Media Guild members (now there's a colossal waste of taxpayers' money). Workers have been returning the packages to the picket lines to be stamped "Return to Sender". As Wall was reporting this, the band started to play "Return to Sender" and we were treated to a rather surprising Elvis impersonation by the normally staid reporter. Maybe it was the "Danny Finkleman Fan Club" tshirt he was wearing, I don't know - but it sure was hilarious!

Today part of the news report was presented by puppets. You know - the soft, furry kind.

Jason Sep 2, 2005 06:19 PM said:

Emotions are invalid in an argument meant to persuade someone with any amount of substance. If your only basis for an argument is emotion, then you have nothing to stand on. It's one of the fundamentals of philosophical discourse. And whether you realise it or not, debate - political and otherwise - has it's basis in philosophical discourse. And that is largely what we're engaging in here.

I raised a contrary perspective concerning this issue elsewhere. While your point has its merits, it can easily be argued that the above description of “the fundamentals of philosophical discourse” is highly reductive and even seriously mistaken. There is a huge literature concerning the poverty of modern philosophy’s uncritical celebration of reason and its neglect of the emotions. Without getting mired in the technical lingo, the basic criticism concerns the false ideal of human beings as purely rational creatures and the equally false ideal of purely rational procedures of inquiry entirely divested of emotional considerations. No such human beings exist, nor do such procedures of inquiry exist. There are many, many contemporary philosophers, some of them quite prominent and influential, many of them feminists, who have sought to correct this mistake by making the emotions a topic of genuine philosophical inquiry. These philosophers include Amelie Rorty, Martha Nussbaum, Annette Baier, Lawrence Blum, Ursula Wolf, Virginia Held, and Sara Ruddick. And, I’d imagine there are many others.

Your remark concerning emotions and arguments needs some elaboration. If you’re referring to, say, mathematical or scientific arguments, then perhaps an appeal to emotions might indeed seem out of place. However, in moral discourse, which includes basically everything on this blog and much of what we engage in everyday of our lives, any argument purportedly based on reason alone is a fiction. If your view is that a moral argument based solely on emotion is a failed argument, it can just as easily be countered that an argument based solely on reason is a non-existent argument. Reason is morally neutral and purely instrumental. There is nothing inherently good or bad in reason. Reason can be employed by saints just as easily as it can be employed by Nazis. The moral justifications of an argument cannot rest on reason alone. There is something further to which moral arguments must appeal if they are to be convincing. And, I would argue, the emotions certainly have something to do with it.

Whether you're talking about negotiations between a corporation and a labour union or a "philosophical discourse" between two armchair philosophers, I fail to see how emotional considerations can be entirely excluded.

amckay Sep 2, 2005 07:38 PM said:

I'll grant intuition as something desirable in making decisions and having the debates which surround those decisions, and even some degree of emotion to persuade people. I do however draw the line when there is next to no rational merit to a proposition that e.g. may dramatically alter my life in some way, or cost me some amount of money. And moreover what I really find disgusting is the wholesale manipulation of people's emotions as it is currently playing out both in the Canadian and US political scenes. And I'm sure elsewhere as well it's just those are the two i'm most familiar with.

It's absolutely required e.g. in the case of a drunken driver who kills someone, that family members of the victim get to have their day in court telling their stories, and this was a huge advance in modern law when jurisdictions started allowing it. But to then take a leap of faith and convict someone based on the completely unproven emotional response of others is rather another story.

That's all I'm really saying ... balance

Jason Sep 3, 2005 12:30 AM said:

I do however draw the line when there is next to no rational merit to a proposition that e.g. may dramatically alter my life in some way, or cost me some amount of money.

Suppose I show you a picture of the victims of Katrina or Darfur or some other nightmare and then say, “These people are suffering. Please donate now.” I merely state a fact and then appeal to the emotions of sympathy and compassion. What “rational merit” would there be? There isn’t an actual argument -- just a statement and a plea. Does that mean that you would not donate because there is no actual rational argument?

Assuming you are in a situation in which you could donate and in which your donation was badly needed, why would you not donate unless the images of suffering human beings failed to arouse in you the emotions of sympathy and compassion? That is, if such images left you emotionally indifferent? Would any rational argument persuade you to donate without appealing to yet other emotions?

…what I really find disgusting is the wholesale manipulation of people's emotions as it is currently playing out both in the Canadian and US political scenes.

On this remark, two points. First, if it is argued that the emotions can be manipulated, it can just as easily be argued that reason can be used for the manipulating. Whatever misgivings you might express toward an appeal to the emotions can be matched by equally strong misgivings toward an appeal to reason. Arguments are, after all, seen by many, many people as nothing more than mere tools or instruments to be strategically wielded by those skilled enough to bring about a certain outcome: lawyers, academics, economists, journalists, and even scientists. Could you guarantee a situation in which reason was immune to manipulation? If reason is not in itself a neutral standard, then to what can you appeal to guarantee neutrality?

Second, your disgust for the manipulation of the emotions is itself an emotion, namely, disgust. The strength of your argument rests not on a purely abstract appeal to reason, but rather to an emotion. To point this out is not, of course, to say that the manipulation of the emotions or of any other kind is acceptable, but rather that every moral argument is necessarily an appeal to an emotion. To speak of allowing “some degree of emotion” into an argument thus seems misleading. To what else can moral arguments ultimately appeal if not to the emotions?

That's all I'm really saying ... balance

And isn’t “balance,” much like the purely rational human being, just another moral fiction used to mask purely arbitrary judgments? Isn’t “balance” just a substitute term for “Truth” and “Justice”? Isn’t the appeal to balance the same as saying, “Do it the right way”? How could one possibly calculate a “balanced” appeal to the emotions and reason? According to what algorithm would you perform such a calculation? Who would develop that algorithm? Suppose two people from two different cultures have two different views concerning the appeal to the emotions. How could you possibly adjudicate between them without implicating yourself in ethnocentric standards of judgment? And who, besides you, is to say that your method of adjudication would be right? Put simply, if you claim that somebody’s arguments are “invalid” because they’re supposedly based only on emotions, then how do you defend yourself against the counterclaim that your “balanced” arguments are based on purely arbitrary standards and therefore equally invalid? On what basis would you claim “validity”?

amckay Sep 3, 2005 03:52 PM said:

I believe the only "rational merit" in the first instance is simply to reasonably verify / be reasonably certain the pictures are authentic, but that is still a tidbit of the factual. But this is a very black-and-white situation, when in fact the majority of those we encounter in our day-to-day lives are far more complex.

As for whether or not there could be rational manipulation, I do believe where you are the one proposing it, the onus is on you to present an example to support the proposal. As best I can tell ration is like math and is difficult to find fault in, if it is indeed ration.

And as for balance, as best i can tell at the moment one senses it when things are balanced. Sort of like a feedback loop i guess. The equation is already there and it's up to us to determine what it is. And yes I know that's a circular explanation, but then again all of the universe has cycles so why should not arguments?

I will also point out that you seem to have narrowed this down to moral arguments, when the original example was nothing of the sort. I'm not sure some of your points apply to all situations.

pinklitva Sep 3, 2005 04:03 PM said:

Schleck.

Am I the only person who is getting bored with this thread? :-[

Skip the tea please Miss Vicky and hand me the sweet sherry.....

Jason Sep 3, 2005 05:38 PM said:

And as for balance, as best i can tell at the moment one senses it when things are balanced. Sort of like a feedback loop i guess. The equation is already there and it's up to us to determine what it is. And yes I know that's a circular explanation, but then again all of the universe has cycles so why should not arguments?

You realize this is a copout, right? :-)

Just so it's clear, relying on what "one senses" is no more rationally persuasive than the appeal to the emotions. The former is purely arbitrary and, hence, no more "valid" than the appeal to the emotions.

Jason Sep 3, 2005 05:47 PM said:

Am I the only person who is getting bored with this thread? :-[

Oh, come on! Do you mean to tell me you never saw that Sesame Street episode in which Kermit the Frog and Cookie Monster make systematic inquiries into moral validity and rational justification fun and exciting for everyone?

(Thank heavens I saw that episode...)

amckay Sep 3, 2005 07:35 PM said:

Yes and no. It's a copout in a rational argument, but then your starting point was to throw reason out. And I clearly gave in above when pressed that I'm willing to accept sense as well as emotion. But you were enquiring as to the nature of balance, and that is it's nature. You do not define a balance - the balance is already there you just have to find it. You are frustrated now not because my answer is flawed, but because the nature of your original question was flawed.

Jason Sep 4, 2005 01:44 AM said:

Let me try this again :-)

You say, “the balance is already there you just have to find it.” Suppose that two people, a representative of a corporation and a representative of a labour union, are in negotiations. Suppose that these representatives are mutually devoted to discovering “the balance.” Each, however, arrives at something radically different from the other. Each believes with certainty that he or she has found the balance. Would they both be right? If not, is it possible to adjudicate between them? If so, how? And, if not, then of what of value is an appeal to “the balance”?

To use another example… Suppose that George W. Bush claims that the global antiwar movement was utterly misguided in its opposition to the invasion of Iraq, but that he, by contrast, was properly guided by “the balance.” (Given the man’s remarkable self-confidence, that wouldn’t exactly be an unlikely scenario.) Would he be wrong? Would you be able to prove him wrong? If so, how?

You do not define a balance - the balance is already there you just have to find it.

How do you find something if you don’t know what you’re looking for? Why would you bother looking for it in the first place? If you can’t define “the balance,” then doesn’t the term itself become meaningless? You could substitute “the balance” with “X” or “God” or “the truth”; it wouldn’t be any less meaningless.

More to the point, though, this talk of “the balance” may strike the cynical reader (an example of whom I certainly am not, heaven forbid!) as only so much metaphysical blather: hollow words that don't actually say anything substantive. Suppose an evangelical Christian says, “You do not define God -– God is already there. You just have to find Him.” Besides laughter, what would a sensible response be?

Again, if you claim that an argument based solely on emotion is “invalid,” then it could just as easily be countered that an appeal to “the balance” is purely arbitrary and, hence, equally invalid. This is not to "throw reason out," but rather to throw into question the elusive standard to which you appeal for neutrality. I can't quite say that your answer was flawed, because I don't actually see an answer.

(NOTE: Let me just say that, concerning “the balance,” I would be delighted to be completely wrong. With an all-purpose key to solving the problems of negotiation, there is no telling how much money I could rack up in conflict resolution books. I mean, I can only imagine how badly I would be in demand at the United Nations! I could solve the Palestinian-Israeli crisis or, heck, maybe even the War on Terror! The prospects for peace are, to say the least, extremely promising. For this reason, if for no other, fortitude is of the essence, my dear amckay. Kindly bear with me while I seek the balance.)

amckay Sep 4, 2005 08:39 AM said:

In your first example, you'd know it was balanced if everyone agreed it were. Simple. The balanced way is the one where everything fits. Where the least amount of effort is required to maintain it. Where everything is in harmony.

Let's recap here. I began with the proposal that the only thing permissable in an argument was reason. You immediately countered that we must allow other things in such as emotion. You immediately convinced me I was wrong, which is when I then said I'd allow emotion and sense. And now that I choose in my further argument to use the tools which you yourself demanded be admitted, you are calling me on it and saying it's meaningless?

Interesting position you find yourself in ...

BTW, your analogy to the Christian is dead-on, and that's precisely what's wrong with allowing in anything but reason. But you, sir, are the one who opened the barn door, and the horses are already out.

Jason Sep 4, 2005 11:16 AM said:

And now that I choose in my further argument to use the tools which you yourself demanded be admitted, you are calling me on it and saying it's meaningless?

If you choose not to define something, then you choose not to give it meaning. Hence, it is meaningless. To define a term is to “determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of” that term. If I choose not to define “X”, then I leave it meaningless. Similarly, if you choose not to define “the balance,” then you leave it meaningless.

As to how this puts me in an interesting position, I just want to assure you that that makes wonderful sense.

In your first example, you'd know it was balanced if everyone agreed it were. Simple. The balanced way is the one where everything fits. Where the least amount of effort is required to maintain it. Where everything is in harmony.

Yes, of course... How silly of me not to have picked up on this earlier! This is a remarkable piece of wisdom. If only those silly negotiators (and, basically, everyone else on the planet) would take to heart the eternal, unfailing principles of “balance” and “harmony”. I mean, how could anyone raise a silly issue like egregious disparities of power? If only the Nazis and the Jews of Europe had understood “balance” and “harmony,” then maybe all those wacky events like the Holocaust might have never happened! We can also just set aside the trifling, unimportant fact that corporations and labour unions have fundamentally incompatible goals. Something as silly as that shouldn’t get in the way of “balance” and “harmony”. Thank heavens there isn’t even a hint of deafening ambiguity or total absurdity here!

Thank you so much for answering my queries! After all these years, I’m now finally in harmony with…well…just about everything!! I can’t wait to tell my friends and family about this! Thanks again!!

amckay Sep 4, 2005 12:14 PM said:

I've defined balance. By your own request it was admitted into this argument as something alternate to reason, and now that i've chosen to use it you insist that i define it within the very terms you agreed to throw out for me to even pull the tool in, in the first place. Balance cannot be defined within the realm of reason, just as can not sight, taste, touch and the the various other sense. You just have to assume as a ground rule you're all getting it the same way.

As mentioned, your question contradicts itself so how should i answer it?

The funny thing about balance is that it's a 6th sense, yet nobody seems to ever trust it. How should I define any sensory input other than in terms of that own sense? It's not exactly an easy task.

Oh, and godwin calls you out ... with that i bid you adieu ...

Jason Sep 4, 2005 01:41 PM said:

You do not define a balance…

I've defined balance.

Balance cannot be defined within the realm of reason…

If I had given you the impression that I harbored even the slightest doubts about “the balance,” let me assure you that your remarkable consistency and stunning clarity have cleared those doubts away completely. I’m sold!!

The funny thing about balance is that it's a 6th sense, yet nobody seems to ever trust it.

Gee, I can’t possibly imagine why. I mean, how could literally everyone be so narrow-minded? It’s just shocking. If only the stubborn, ignorant masses would just trust their infallible 6th sense as you’ve defined it in terms that can’t be understood within the realm of reason, then surely all the world’s problems could be solved virtually overnight!

You know, I feel so silly thinking how much of a pessimist I used to be! As of today, I'm throwing away all of my Dr. Phil and Deepak Chopra books and trusting "the balance." Thanks for all your help!!

pinklitva Sep 4, 2005 02:48 PM said:

Oh.........

Forget the sherry glass Miss Vicky, I'll just drink it from the bottle.....

amckay Sep 4, 2005 02:54 PM said:

Jason, if you want to stick to reason, say so. You started this by saying you did not. I'm only playing by your rules.

Jason Sep 4, 2005 05:03 PM said:

Dearest amckay,

To critique pure reason is not to throw reason out altogether. To point out reason’s fundamentally instrumental character is to say that reason can be employed by anybody for virtually any purpose. It can be used by so skilled and manipulative a rhetorician as Ari Fleischer just as easily as it can be used by Noam Chomsky. Similarly, a hammer can be put to many, many different purposes. You can use it to build a house or you can use it to seriously hurt someone. However, the hammer itself does not discriminate between the uses to which it is put. Likewise, reason does not discriminate between the uses to which it is put. Just as there is nothing in a hammer that will tell you why it is better to build a house than to hurt someone, so, too, is there nothing in reason that will tell you why it is better to build a house than to hurt someone. What motivates you to pursue either course of action is not reason, but an emotional identification with some ultimate end. Ultimate ends are never furnished by reason. Reason is only a means to realizing ultimate ends.

To point out reason’s dependency on emotional commitments that precede reason itself is thus not to “throw reason out.” It is merely to draw attention to reason’s dependency and to underscore the myth of “pure reason”. You don’t “allow” emotion into an argument. Arguments are based on prior emotional commitments.

As to your 6th sense defying reason, I’m as convinced of your 6th sense as I am of witches, unicorns, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Expecting a corporation to rely on its 6th sense provides as much comfort to a labour union as amulets, rabbit’s feet, talismans, and the psychic hotline. An appeal to the 6th sense is only “valid” for those who believe in such a thing in the first place. For those who don’t, the 6th sense is as “valid” as amulets, rabbit’s feet, talismans, and the psychic hotline.

Perhaps I didn’t make it clear before: I do not believe in the 6th sense. And, if there’s no rational way of talking about it, then, as far as I can see, there is no point in talking about it. So, there goes that conversation :-)

amckay Sep 4, 2005 05:49 PM said:

Jason, I'm honestly through this time. You first ask me to introduce something other than reason into the realm of tools to be employed when discussing matters, and then as soon as I employ the very tool you asked I introduce, you attack me for it. Not only do you attack me for it, however, in your 2nd last post you outright ridiculed me for it. Completely outside the realm of any sort of reason.

But nonetheless I have born the brunt of your initial attack, and then your supposed "counter" when it was already apparant you were only interested in attacking me and not my argument. At this point you have long since only been arguing with yourself. Have fun with that.

Miss Vicky Sep 4, 2005 08:04 PM said:

pinklitva, I'm out of sherry. How do you feel about single malt?

Jason Sep 4, 2005 10:47 PM said:

Sorry, Miss Vicky :-) I mean only well, contrary to what might seem otherwise.

If you have any chamomile tea, I would be grateful for a half dozen cups.

chameleon Sep 12, 2005 09:43 AM said:

Hmmm..... interesting bit of intellectual gymnastics here, but have we forgotten the topic (CBC Lockout) while exercising our cortices?
Emotional or Rational.... isn't it wrong that our beloved CBC workers have been robbed of their livelihood?

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